Feb. 28, 2022
How to Start a Company on the Side | Mike Potter, Founder of Rewind
To launch a startup you have to leave your job and spend considerable capital, with no guarantee of success. It involves considerable risk, right?
Not for Mike.
Mike started Rewind- a company now approaching unicorn status- fully on the side. It started off as a project, and neither Mike nor his co-founders took any salary cuts to get Rewind off the ground. Instead, they worked nights and weekends, steadily growing MRR and joined one at a time as the startup became self-sufficient.
If you have an idea but aren't ready to go all in, check out this episode and learn how to start it on the side.
03:59 - Coming up with the idea
06:23 - Launching the app
08:04 - How to find time to work on a side project
11:47 - Why going part-time at first might be an advantage
13:50 - Your startup is an experiment
15:42 - Deciding to jump in full time
19:00 - Why working 8 hours is enough
21:51 - Recap
WEBVTT
00:00:00.059 --> 00:00:03.720
Building software is not like building widgets.
00:00:03.721 --> 00:00:05.370
You're not building something physical.
00:00:05.371 --> 00:00:13.679
You're using your brain to build something, and it's sort of a creative process, and your brain needs to work properly in order to be able to do that.
00:00:13.680 --> 00:00:24.269
If you've got stress, if you've got other things that you're thinking about, or that you're worried about, your brain is not going to be free to do its best of work.
00:00:24.271 --> 00:00:31.710
We didn't have the pressure of, quitting our jobs and needing to make mortgage payments or car payments or support our kids and families.
00:00:32.250 --> 00:00:34.979
It was whatever we were doing is what we were doing.
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:41.219
Welcome to the product-market fit show brought to you by Mistrial, a seed stage firm based in Canada.
00:00:41.220 --> 00:00:43.439
I'm Pablo, I'm the founder turned VC.
00:00:43.441 --> 00:00:46.649
My goal is to help early-stage founders like you find product-market fit.
00:00:50.909 --> 00:00:53.820
Today, we have Mike Potter, co-founder and CEO of Rewind.
00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:56.250
Rewind is a backup platform for SaaS apps.
00:00:56.369 --> 00:01:01.109
The platform automatically backs up all your data on apps like Shopify, QuickBooks, and many others.
00:01:01.509 --> 00:01:03.359
Rewind i s based in Ottawa, Ontario.
00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:06.599
They have about a hundred employees and have raised over$60 million.
00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:10.680
The topic of today's episode is how to build a start-up on the side.
00:01:11.129 --> 00:01:14.939
And we're not just talking about any start-up, some sort of side hustle here.
00:01:15.269 --> 00:01:21.810
Mike was able to, on the side, launch a start-up that is now well on its way to becoming one of the latest Canadian unicorns.
00:01:22.019 --> 00:01:23.609
Hey, Mike, it's great to have you here.
00:01:24.269 --> 00:01:24.719
Hi, Pablo.
00:01:24.721 --> 00:01:25.560
It's great to be here.
00:01:25.620 --> 00:01:26.250
Thanks for having me.
00:01:26.310 --> 00:01:39.269
Before we jump into all the details and the ins and outs of what it's like to work on a start-up on the side, which I believe you did for about 18 months, let's go back to the beginning.
00:01:39.751 --> 00:01:46.349
It's 2014, 2015, as I understand it, you're working as a senior product manager at a different company.
00:01:46.469 --> 00:01:47.909
You'd started a start-up before that.
00:01:47.911 --> 00:01:59.879
And so, my first question is just while you're working as a senior PM at this company, are you in this mindset of, I'm here for now, but it's just a matter of time until I come up with an idea and I leave the start-up to be a founder again.
00:01:59.881 --> 00:02:02.099
What's your mindset as you're working at this other place?
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:11.699
The first start-up that I ran, it was a great experience, but I learned a lot in it, and it definitely took a lot out of me.
00:02:11.969 --> 00:02:20.310
I don't think I was quite ready to do a whole other start-up at that point when James and I started working together.
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:31.889
But it's definitely interested in just, having a side project and tinkering with something and spending my spare time working on something that could become successful.
00:02:32.250 --> 00:02:44.280
But there was really no interest, in quitting my job and working full-time and making some of the same mistakes that I made the first time, which was, quitting my job too early and leaving a really stable job.
00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:55.919
But at the same time, when you're a software developer and you love building things, it's just natural to want to tinker on the side in the evenings and weekends and build stuff.
00:02:57.091 --> 00:03:04.599
I approached James, I think it was in the winter of 2014, to do that and to start working on something on the side.
00:03:04.600 --> 00:03:12.340
And we actually had a whole other project that we worked on for about six months before stopping that and then moving onto Rewind.
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:19.810
To be clear, it didn't even start with a problem, and oh God I got to fix it, it was more of, I want to do something on the side.
00:03:19.930 --> 00:03:20.409
You knew James.
00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:22.270
Was he your friend?
00:03:22.540 --> 00:03:24.610
And then you went to him, and you said hey, let's just start working on something?
00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:32.770
Yeah, I'd worked with James at another start-up in Ottawa called the Crew, and I really enjoyed working with him.
00:03:32.810 --> 00:03:37.180
And I think in November of 2014, I emailed him and I said,"Hey, I really liked working with you.
00:03:37.181 --> 00:03:41.229
Would you like to work on something on the side?" And he was certainly open to that.
00:03:41.230 --> 00:03:47.979
He had tried that with a couple of people in the past as well, his experience was that they never went anywhere.
00:03:48.789 --> 00:03:51.699
You need to start with an idea when you go out to it.
00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:53.710
It's not just like, hey, let's work on anything.
00:03:53.711 --> 00:03:58.210
You really need to be solving a problem that you're quite passionate about when you get going on something.
00:03:59.289 --> 00:04:07.360
When did the core idea for Rewind, this backup for SaaS apps, when did that come along and really how?
00:04:07.540 --> 00:04:09.729
what was the origin story for Rewind?
00:04:10.539 --> 00:04:17.259
Yes, we were six months into this other app that we've built, and it's really not going anywhere.
00:04:17.261 --> 00:04:24.939
There's no customers, we are having a hard time figuring out a channel to go to market through, we can't attract anybody to it.
00:04:24.940 --> 00:04:28.509
And I'd seen that before in my first start-up, I kind of recognized that pattern.
00:04:28.511 --> 00:04:34.839
I said,"Look, this is not going to turn out well, I know what happened in my first start-up.
00:04:34.841 --> 00:04:41.139
I don't want that outcome again, so we need to move on to something else." James really thought it was a good idea.
00:04:41.141 --> 00:04:45.040
I remember the conversation we had around that time was him saying,"No, I want to keep working on this.
00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:59.259
I think it's got a lot of potential," and me saying,"No, we need to find something else." It might be a good idea, but it's not necessarily a good business if you can't find people that will use it and find a way to get customers.
00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:02.399
So, I suggested backups because I'm a big backups guy.
00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:04.269
I've lost data in the past.
00:05:04.271 --> 00:05:07.089
I know the pain that you get when you lose data.
00:05:07.091 --> 00:05:11.079
I've got a hard drive here on my floor that mirrors my Mac.
00:05:11.081 --> 00:05:16.689
And I remember telling him and saying,"I'd really like to work on backups.
00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:18.459
I think, API-based backups".
00:05:18.461 --> 00:05:28.930
And what you can do in Amazon was storing data without having to really, build a lot of infrastructure i s really sort of game- changers in terms of the backup space.
00:05:29.081 --> 00:05:35.259
We looked around and said,"What can we back up?" We're in Ottawa, Shopify is in Ottawa.
00:05:35.261 --> 00:05:38.920
This is April or May of 2015.
00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.470
They're growing like crazy at that point.
00:05:41.471 --> 00:05:43.149
We said,"Let's build it for Shopify.
00:05:43.151 --> 00:06:03.470
Let's see if people need backups for Shopify." To validate that idea, we went o n t o the forums, we posted, we searched in the forums for people that were looking for backups, we posted messages and replies to those, we set up a quick little landing page where people could give us their email address to show that they were interested.
00:06:03.771 --> 00:06:13.069
I think within a couple of weeks of launching that l anding page, we had about 20 people that did sign up for pre-access, if you will, before w e'd built it.
00:06:13.550 --> 00:06:23.120
And that was a pretty good indication that we were onto something that was much, much better than the first idea because now we've got 20 people that are interested in it where the first one we built it, but we didn't really have anybody.
00:06:23.629 --> 00:06:28.129
Before you built and launched an app, you'd mentioned you'd done some validation.
00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:30.230
What exactly did that look like?
00:06:30.230 --> 00:06:31.610
Was it just...
00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:41.509
did you get anybody to pre-order it, did you do a bunch of interviews with Shopify customers, or was it more high level?
00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.069
I don't think we did any interviews with them.
00:06:46.071 --> 00:06:48.800
I think that would have been an improvement on what we did.
00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:55.279
We also didn't get anybody to pre-order it because when we launched it, we made it free for the first six months.
00:06:55.641 --> 00:07:02.540
We launched in June of 2015 and the thinking behind launching it as a free app was a couple of things.
00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:10.670
One, we wanted to validate whether people actually had the problem, and we didn't want price to be a barrier to them validating that assumption or not.
00:07:10.521 --> 00:07:17.600
So, we removed price as an option, which, there's a big debate, I think, online about whether you should be charging people right u pfront or not.
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:25.370
The other thing that we got, though, was, we got a bunch of f ive-s tar s tar reviews in the app store from those customers.
00:07:25.610 --> 00:07:47.120
Although it was free from a monetary perspective, we didn't charge customers, they did provide value to us by rating us in the Shopify app store so that when we did move to a paid model in January of 2016, about six months after launch, we already had dozens of five-star reviews in the app store telling people that it was a great app, that they needed it.
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:54.050
You decided to work on backups, and you're doing all of this while you still have a full-time job.
00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:55.069
And the other question I have for you is.
00:07:55.071 --> 00:07:56.449
You have kids, right?
00:07:56.630 --> 00:07:58.579
How old are your kids at that stage?
00:07:59.029 --> 00:08:04.279
About six years ago, were around three to seven years old.
00:08:04.459 --> 00:08:10.699
You've got really young kids, you've got a full-time job, you're launching a brand-new product.
00:08:10.701 --> 00:08:16.399
First question is, just how much time, per week, do you think you were putting into Rewind back then?
00:08:16.401 --> 00:08:17.870
And the second thing is when?
00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.779
Which part of the day are you devoted to Rewind?
00:08:20.781 --> 00:08:21.920
How are you balancing everything?
00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:24.350
It's a good question.
00:08:24.389 --> 00:08:32.629
I think, it was in the tens of hours a week and it was mainly after the kids had gone to bed.
00:08:32.929 --> 00:08:38.000
So, it was 8 to 12 to 1 in the morning, sort of thing.
00:08:39.169 --> 00:08:42.200
Maybe occasionally waking up early and working on it as well.
00:08:42.590 --> 00:08:43.460
I think that's the most.
00:08:43.010 --> 00:08:53.210
And as I look back on our early time, I think that's one of the most impressive things about what we did, was just how long we were able to sustain that.
00:08:53.659 --> 00:09:01.379
We also, six months in, f ound t wo other friends, who also h appened to have worked with us at the Crew, who joined us.
00:09:01.260 --> 00:09:03.090
So, we were four people at that point.
00:09:03.389 --> 00:09:03.450
All part-time?
00:09:03.389 --> 00:09:06.899
All part-time, yes.
00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:08.700
Everybody kept their full-time jobs.
00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:18.840
Again, kind of amazing to find four people that are willing to put in hours on evenings and weekends and spend time working on this side project.
00:09:19.259 --> 00:09:20.549
It was certainly really difficult.
00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:33.149
You worked as long as you could on it and whenever you could, there was no pressure from anybody to say,"You need to get this done by this time." Everybody's sort of was in the same boat.
00:09:33.150 --> 00:09:35.370
Everybody's got families, everybody's got other jobs that they want to do.
00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:47.460
And there was a bit of indirect peer pressure of seeing the work that others were doing and pushing you along a nd say, we're getting somewhere, these guys have worked on this, I'm going to work on this.
00:09:47.461 --> 00:10:02.850
I know that's something that James talks about a lot really early when it was just the two of us, feeding off, of each other and having one person do something and then feeling like, I got ta do something too, and then you do something and then you sort of feed off of that and you get a lot done.
00:10:02.850 --> 00:10:12.450
Tha t ce rtainly helped compared to, my first start-up when I was working on it mainly as a sole founder initially, really different dynamic to have a co-founder there to help push you along.
00:10:13.350 --> 00:10:26.850
Was there any frustration at the speed of execution, even if it wasn't directed at each other, like,"Hey, you got to get this done by X time," just as a whole, was it a benefit to not have the pressure that early on or was it a detriment?
00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.360
I think early on, we were still wondering how big could it be?
00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:31.289
Because there was so many people...
00:10:31.291 --> 00:10:35.340
the feedback that we had really early was...
00:10:36.570 --> 00:10:45.360
So, we talked to another Shopify app developer in Ottawa, for instance, who said that you could charge customers$5 a month for the product that we were building.
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:52.470
We talked to somebody who worked at Shopify, who said that it was a good idea, but customers would never pay anything for it.
00:10:52.529 --> 00:10:57.149
There was still a question mark in our head around how big could it be.
00:10:57.150 --> 00:11:02.970
For the first few months we added about$500 of revenue, recurring revenue a month.
00:11:02.490 --> 00:11:09.059
It's clearly not...you're not crushing it, you're not adding$10,000 a month or something like that.
00:11:09.061 --> 00:11:09.480
You're doing well.
00:11:10.169 --> 00:11:15.899
And over time, that's going to build into a really great business and maybe one day you can quit your jobs.
00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:19.799
But the early sort of indications that we had were 500 bucks.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.090
It's okay, well, that's not much.
00:11:20.701 --> 00:11:25.559
We went from 500 to 2, 500 within the first six months.
00:11:25.590 --> 00:11:26.639
We increased our prices.
00:11:26.640 --> 00:11:35.580
We just kept increasing our top line, our top plan price and we just kept making it higher and higher and higher because we got these larger and larger stores that were...
00:11:35.730 --> 00:11:36.570
this is ridiculous.
00:11:36.571 --> 00:11:40.710
We're charging some of Shopify's largest stores$20 a month.
00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:43.139
We could be charging them$200 a month.
00:11:43.140 --> 00:11:46.860
So, we just kept testing that higher price point as we went and as we grew.
00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.049
Would you go as far as say that there's an advantage to that?
00:11:49.051 --> 00:11:57.279
If you had gone all in and you were doing 2000 a month, you might be, holy crap, how do we...we need to get to 10 and 20 yesterday, sort of thing.
00:11:57.700 --> 00:12:05.799
When you're on the side, that pressure is not at the same level because you can kind of go, you can go to a different pace and it's not a huge deal.
00:12:05.801 --> 00:12:07.990
Is that a good thing, a bad thing, how did that play out?
00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:11.529
I think it's a good thing.
00:12:12.431 --> 00:12:22.480
I know there's a sort of a debate around what you should be doing, but in my experience and opinion, building a software is not like building widgets.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:33.429
You're not building something physical, you're using your brain to build something and it's sort of a creative process and your brain needs to work properly in order to be able to do that.
00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:51.490
If you've got stress, if you've got other things that you're thinking about or that you're worried about, we didn't have the pressure of quitting our jobs and needing to make mortgage payments or car payments or support our kids and families.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.769
It was whatever we were doing was what we were doing.
00:12:53.770 --> 00:12:57.610
And our first year in business went really, really well.
00:12:57.850 --> 00:13:03.309
We sort of benefited from the success, but I think the success came because we didn't have that pressure.
00:13:03.311 --> 00:13:13.179
We didn't have stuff that was weighing us down and we were free to stop and think and solve problems and say,"Okay, how else can we do this?"
00:13:13.389 --> 00:13:17.559
In the earliest phases of a start-up, it's really not a company.
00:13:18.010 --> 00:13:20.409
A company is not the best analogy for it.
00:13:20.410 --> 00:13:28.210
It's much more about a project, it's about testing things out, trying something and just the creation process, the discovery process of i t all.
00:13:28.211 --> 00:13:49.179
By setting it up that way and removing this pressure of needing to turn a project to a real company, you actually get there in a better way because you get t o t reat a project as a project and not put in these artificial milestones and goals that, frankly, are maybe not a good fit for start-up at that stage.
00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:55.600
I think that treating it like an experiment is really good analogy.
00:13:55.691 --> 00:13:59.259
You're not sure of anything.
00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:03.610
We weren't sure of our pricing when we launched it.
00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:06.730
We didn't know what the price point should be.
00:14:06.730 --> 00:14:11.620
We had one local developer who told us that the price should be$5 a month.
00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:13.690
So, we said, okay, that's our low end.
00:14:13.691 --> 00:14:15.399
And then we went, what more could you charge?
00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:17.139
We thought, three times that would be a lot.
00:14:17.140 --> 00:14:20.980
So, we went to 15, and then we thought, what's the highest you could charge that.
00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:24.549
And then we thought, we'll double that.
00:14:24.551 --> 00:14:26.629
Our initial pricing was 5, 15, and 29.
00:14:26.630 --> 00:14:29.769
And we just kept experimenting with that high-end price point.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:38.679
And then it went 29 to 39 to 59 to 99 to 199 to 299 to 399 to 499.
00:14:38.681 --> 00:14:41.110
We just kept trying new things.
00:14:41.110 --> 00:14:45.639
We never looked at what we were doing as we have to make this work.
00:14:45.971 --> 00:14:48.610
It was, is this the right thing to be doing?
00:14:48.610 --> 00:14:50.259
And we questioned it as we went.
00:14:50.260 --> 00:14:54.590
Like I said, we rebuilt the backup system.
00:14:54.591 --> 00:15:03.019
We wiped everybody's data three times in order to get to a system that we felt could scale up and scale out t o handle all the load that we had.
00:15:03.020 --> 00:15:22.820
If you had thought about that more as a company and trying to find efficiencies, as opposed to an experiment and be willing to throw o ut everything that you've already worked on for months of work and just say,"Okay, that didn't work, try again." I think that mindset was really important or is really important as you go into it because we still have that mindset, to be honest with you.
00:15:22.821 --> 00:15:29.029
I tell almost all of our new employees,"Don't assume that anything that we're doing is the right way to be doing it, you should be questioning everything.
00:15:29.030 --> 00:15:33.110
And if there's a better way to do something, we want to be doing that.
00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:37.129
We don't want to be doing something that w e're currently doing, just because that's what we're currently doing."
00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:38.269
Got it.
00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:42.769
So, it actually was almost built into the DNA and the culture of the company.
00:15:42.770 --> 00:15:57.500
When do you start talking to people about, either maybe it's time to go all in or was it more of a conversation of, okay guys, like once we get to this MRR or this many customers, then we'll go all in.
00:15:57.649 --> 00:15:59.659
How did that discussion unfold?
00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:02.809
It was more around the revenue.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.960
We had a couple of key principles that we wanted to maintain.
00:16:06.020 --> 00:16:12.860
So if somebody went full-time, first of all, we never thought we had to go all in.
00:16:13.041 --> 00:16:19.759
There was really never a discussion point where we said all four of us has to quit our jobs at the same time and a ll go in at the same time.
00:16:19.760 --> 00:16:30.950
It was, let's try one person and let's see if one person can go f ull-time, and we got our revenue to the point where it was more than what we would pay a full-time person.
00:16:30.951 --> 00:16:35.330
So, we're l ike, okay, well, Se an c an go fu ll-time t hen.
00:16:35.331 --> 00:16:41.090
Sean w as the one that was willing to leave his current job and work on it full-t ime s o Sean.
00:16:40.909 --> 00:16:41.600
So, Sean left...
00:16:41.900 --> 00:16:45.830
And you were at what, 10K 20K MRR at the time?
00:16:45.831 --> 00:16:48.919
Yeah, exactly, we were in the 20K kind of range.
00:16:49.130 --> 00:16:50.330
You've got some basic expenses.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.259
I think we pay...
00:16:51.260 --> 00:16:55.970
I don't remember if we paid ourselves a small, small salary early on, just to...
00:16:55.971 --> 00:17:02.720
here are a couple of dinners that you can do to take your wife or girlfriend out to make up for the time that you've lost, sort of thing.
00:17:02.721 --> 00:17:10.670
I can't remember if we had a couple of small salaries back then, but yeah, we get it to 15K or so of MRR.
00:17:10.671 --> 00:17:12.470
And then you're like, okay, great.
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:17.240
That supports one person's salary, plus all the expenses and everything, that's good.
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:27.950
So, Sean went full-time and based on what you are adding, it's just basic math of when can the next person quit their job?
00:17:27.951 --> 00:17:36.890
Julian and I quit in February or, I guess we quit earlier, but we joined Rewind in February of 2017.
00:17:36.891 --> 00:17:49.829
Then a couple of months went by and now we were making enough money where James can join us, and none of us had to take a salary cut when we left our old position, we could maintain our old salary on the new salary.
00:17:49.830 --> 00:17:55.230
And that became like a really easy conversation to have, especially personally speaking with my wife, who...
00:17:54.871 --> 00:17:58.680
like I said, my first start-up didn't really work out all that well.
00:17:58.681 --> 00:18:01.319
And she was very, very hesitant to have me do it again.
00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:08.130
But I was telling her, I said,"It's not going to be a start-up where we work 24 hours a day.
00:18:08.131 --> 00:18:16.769
We're actually going to be working less because we'll work 9 to 5 in the real job and then on Rewind, and then we'll come home and we won't have to work in the evenings and weekends like we were doing.
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:24.150
Was there something about Rewind or the way you guys structured it?
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:35.359
I get part of it is, by the time you joined, it was a real affair, with real MRR o r whatever, but a lot of people would say,"Well, now I don't have this job and I'll go all in ou r R ewind, but I'm not going 9 to 5.
00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:37.079
I'm still go ing t o d o 9 to 9 or whatever.
00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:42.390
You've made a conscious decision to no, I co uld d o it in eight hours.
00:18:42.391 --> 00:18:47.880
That means your whole team obviously is go ing t o w ork eight hours, eight hours being an a rbitrary number, maybe it's nine, maybe it's 10, whatever.
00:18:48.029 --> 00:18:48.549
Yo u ge t the point?
00:18:48.550 --> 00:18:48.660
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:48.550 --> 00:18:49.890
Was there something...
00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:52.799
was it just a decision, this is the way it's going to be?
00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:59.700
Was there something about Rewind that allowed it to be that way where you didn't have to have a 24/7 situation with it?
00:19:00.269 --> 00:19:13.440
I think we're influenced by the team at base camp, and DHH and Jason and the stuff that they've written about maintaining that sort of work-life balance.
00:19:13.441 --> 00:19:18.150
We had also just spent 18 months working two jobs.
00:19:18.151 --> 00:19:24.599
I don't think there was a lot of appetite from our standpoint to say,"Look, let's keep that going." Because that was working out really, really well.
00:19:24.601 --> 00:19:32.549
You could see some of the strain that it was having on family life at home with the four of us.
00:19:32.550 --> 00:19:36.000
When we went full-time, we were very explicit about that.
00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:45.569
We said,"We do not want this to be a 10, 12, 14-hour day kind of thing." We were just doing that.
00:19:45.570 --> 00:19:49.650
That was clearly causing some problems from a personal standpoint, let's make sure that that doesn't happen.
00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:58.859
That's number one, people can't get divorced starting this company.
00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:05.490
That was off limits for us to say that we want to make sure we're avoiding that.
00:20:05.490 --> 00:20:16.829
And making sure that you avoid that is, part of that is working eight hours a day and making sure that people aren't taking time away from family and friends and stuff like that and having a good personal balance.
00:20:16.830 --> 00:20:18.779
But I'd say that the team at base camp was an influence.
00:20:18.780 --> 00:20:20.609
What we would experience was an influence.
00:20:20.611 --> 00:20:23.400
What I'd gone through in my first start-up was an influence.
00:20:23.401 --> 00:20:29.970
And we were very explicit about that when we started that to say that,"No, this is how we want to run this company.
00:20:29.971 --> 00:20:31.529
We want to be a great place to work.
00:20:31.530 --> 00:20:46.589
We want people to enjoy it." And to be honest with you, there's a bit of counter culture at Rewind where, when people do something, we kind of do the opposite.
00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:57.309
I think it takes a special kind of team to build backup product, which is fairly boring, not machine learning or AI or anything like that.
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:07.509
It's not the most exciting technology when you think about it initially, it gets a bit more exciting as you start doing it at scale and what we're doing in terms of 25,000, 30,000 customers.
00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:19.359
But, it's definitely its sort of niche, and you have to be, I think, a special person to be able, to want to work on something that's not the coolest technology.
00:21:19.361 --> 00:21:41.049
And so that counter culture sort of extends from the product into the company, where we do things that most companies don't do, where we try and work eight-hour days and not 12 or 14-hour days in a start-up, where in the summertime we get every other Friday off and work nine out of every 10 days during the summer from the May long weekend to Labour Day.
00:21:41.050 --> 00:21:50.259
There's a lot of stuff that we do that's a bit different than what a lot of other companies are doing, and we're pretty proud of that.
00:21:51.849 --> 00:21:56.650
That was great, a really, really great story of how you...
00:21:56.710 --> 00:22:05.920
originally a friend and an idea, and you started working together fully on the side on really a project and experiment and actually the first one didn't work.
00:22:06.309 --> 00:22:21.640
And then you shifted over to the new experiment, which became Rewind, brought in a few other people and had four people working part-time for around a year and a half, and consistently making progress each time and deciding to stick it out part-time.
00:22:21.641 --> 00:22:24.579
And frankly pointing out a lot of the benefits of doing that.
00:22:24.609 --> 00:22:27.670
And now turned it into a a hundred-person organization.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:35.740
Like I said, i t's worth$60 million and as you mentioned, has 25-30,000 customers, so it's quite an incredible journey and only the beginning.
00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:37.150
So, it was great to have you here, Mike.
00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:38.769
I really appreciate your time.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.329
Yeah, thanks Pablo, was a ton of fun too.
00:22:40.151 --> 00:22:42.069
Thanks so much for listening.
00:22:42.339 --> 00:22:45.039
If you want to see more content, check out pmf.show.
00:00:00.059 --> 00:00:03.720
00:00:03.721 --> 00:00:05.370
00:00:05.371 --> 00:00:13.679
00:00:13.680 --> 00:00:24.269
00:00:24.271 --> 00:00:31.710
00:00:32.250 --> 00:00:34.979
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:41.219
00:00:41.220 --> 00:00:43.439
00:00:43.441 --> 00:00:46.649
00:00:50.909 --> 00:00:53.820
00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:56.250
00:00:56.369 --> 00:01:01.109
00:01:01.509 --> 00:01:03.359
00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:06.599
00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:10.680
00:01:11.129 --> 00:01:14.939
00:01:15.269 --> 00:01:21.810
00:01:22.019 --> 00:01:23.609
00:01:24.269 --> 00:01:24.719
00:01:24.721 --> 00:01:25.560
00:01:25.620 --> 00:01:26.250
00:01:26.310 --> 00:01:39.269
00:01:39.751 --> 00:01:46.349
00:01:46.469 --> 00:01:47.909
00:01:47.911 --> 00:01:59.879
00:01:59.881 --> 00:02:02.099
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:11.699
00:02:11.969 --> 00:02:20.310
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:31.889
00:02:32.250 --> 00:02:44.280
00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:55.919
00:02:57.091 --> 00:03:04.599
00:03:04.600 --> 00:03:12.340
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:19.810
00:03:19.930 --> 00:03:20.409
00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:22.270
00:03:22.540 --> 00:03:24.610
00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:32.770
00:03:32.810 --> 00:03:37.180
00:03:37.181 --> 00:03:41.229
00:03:41.230 --> 00:03:47.979
00:03:48.789 --> 00:03:51.699
00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:53.710
00:03:53.711 --> 00:03:58.210
00:03:59.289 --> 00:04:07.360
00:04:07.540 --> 00:04:09.729
00:04:10.539 --> 00:04:17.259
00:04:17.261 --> 00:04:24.939
00:04:24.940 --> 00:04:28.509
00:04:28.511 --> 00:04:34.839
00:04:34.841 --> 00:04:41.139
00:04:41.141 --> 00:04:45.040
00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:59.259
00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:02.399
00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:04.269
00:05:04.271 --> 00:05:07.089
00:05:07.091 --> 00:05:11.079
00:05:11.081 --> 00:05:16.689
00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:18.459
00:05:18.461 --> 00:05:28.930
00:05:29.081 --> 00:05:35.259
00:05:35.261 --> 00:05:38.920
00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.470
00:05:41.471 --> 00:05:43.149
00:05:43.151 --> 00:06:03.470
00:06:03.771 --> 00:06:13.069
00:06:13.550 --> 00:06:23.120
00:06:23.629 --> 00:06:28.129
00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:30.230
00:06:30.230 --> 00:06:31.610
00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:41.509
00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.069
00:06:46.071 --> 00:06:48.800
00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:55.279
00:06:55.641 --> 00:07:02.540
00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:10.670
00:07:10.521 --> 00:07:17.600
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:25.370
00:07:25.610 --> 00:07:47.120
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:54.050
00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:55.069
00:07:55.071 --> 00:07:56.449
00:07:56.630 --> 00:07:58.579
00:07:59.029 --> 00:08:04.279
00:08:04.459 --> 00:08:10.699
00:08:10.701 --> 00:08:16.399
00:08:16.401 --> 00:08:17.870
00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.779
00:08:20.781 --> 00:08:21.920
00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:24.350
00:08:24.389 --> 00:08:32.629
00:08:32.929 --> 00:08:38.000
00:08:39.169 --> 00:08:42.200
00:08:42.590 --> 00:08:43.460
00:08:43.010 --> 00:08:53.210
00:08:53.659 --> 00:09:01.379
00:09:01.260 --> 00:09:03.090
00:09:03.389 --> 00:09:03.450
00:09:03.389 --> 00:09:06.899
00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:08.700
00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:18.840
00:09:19.259 --> 00:09:20.549
00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:33.149
00:09:33.150 --> 00:09:35.370
00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:47.460
00:09:47.461 --> 00:10:02.850
00:10:02.850 --> 00:10:12.450
00:10:13.350 --> 00:10:26.850
00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.360
00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:31.289
00:10:31.291 --> 00:10:35.340
00:10:36.570 --> 00:10:45.360
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:52.470
00:10:52.529 --> 00:10:57.149
00:10:57.150 --> 00:11:02.970
00:11:02.490 --> 00:11:09.059
00:11:09.061 --> 00:11:09.480
00:11:10.169 --> 00:11:15.899
00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:19.799
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.090
00:11:20.701 --> 00:11:25.559
00:11:25.590 --> 00:11:26.639
00:11:26.640 --> 00:11:35.580
00:11:35.730 --> 00:11:36.570
00:11:36.571 --> 00:11:40.710
00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:43.139
00:11:43.140 --> 00:11:46.860
00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.049
00:11:49.051 --> 00:11:57.279
00:11:57.700 --> 00:12:05.799
00:12:05.801 --> 00:12:07.990
00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:11.529
00:12:12.431 --> 00:12:22.480
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:33.429
00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:51.490
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.769
00:12:53.770 --> 00:12:57.610
00:12:57.850 --> 00:13:03.309
00:13:03.311 --> 00:13:13.179
00:13:13.389 --> 00:13:17.559
00:13:18.010 --> 00:13:20.409
00:13:20.410 --> 00:13:28.210
00:13:28.211 --> 00:13:49.179
00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:55.600
00:13:55.691 --> 00:13:59.259
00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:03.610
00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:06.730
00:14:06.730 --> 00:14:11.620
00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:13.690
00:14:13.691 --> 00:14:15.399
00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:17.139
00:14:17.140 --> 00:14:20.980
00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:24.549
00:14:24.551 --> 00:14:26.629
00:14:26.630 --> 00:14:29.769
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:38.679
00:14:38.681 --> 00:14:41.110
00:14:41.110 --> 00:14:45.639
00:14:45.971 --> 00:14:48.610
00:14:48.610 --> 00:14:50.259
00:14:50.260 --> 00:14:54.590
00:14:54.591 --> 00:15:03.019
00:15:03.020 --> 00:15:22.820
00:15:22.821 --> 00:15:29.029
00:15:29.030 --> 00:15:33.110
00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:37.129
00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:38.269
00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:42.769
00:15:42.770 --> 00:15:57.500
00:15:57.649 --> 00:15:59.659
00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:02.809
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.960
00:16:06.020 --> 00:16:12.860
00:16:13.041 --> 00:16:19.759
00:16:19.760 --> 00:16:30.950
00:16:30.951 --> 00:16:35.330
00:16:35.331 --> 00:16:41.090
00:16:40.909 --> 00:16:41.600
00:16:41.900 --> 00:16:45.830
00:16:45.831 --> 00:16:48.919
00:16:49.130 --> 00:16:50.330
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.259
00:16:51.260 --> 00:16:55.970
00:16:55.971 --> 00:17:02.720
00:17:02.721 --> 00:17:10.670
00:17:10.671 --> 00:17:12.470
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:17.240
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:27.950
00:17:27.951 --> 00:17:36.890
00:17:36.891 --> 00:17:49.829
00:17:49.830 --> 00:17:55.230
00:17:54.871 --> 00:17:58.680
00:17:58.681 --> 00:18:01.319
00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:08.130
00:18:08.131 --> 00:18:16.769
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:24.150
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:35.359
00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:37.079
00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:42.390
00:18:42.391 --> 00:18:47.880
00:18:48.029 --> 00:18:48.549
00:18:48.550 --> 00:18:48.660
00:18:48.550 --> 00:18:49.890
00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:52.799
00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:59.700
00:19:00.269 --> 00:19:13.440
00:19:13.441 --> 00:19:18.150
00:19:18.151 --> 00:19:24.599
00:19:24.601 --> 00:19:32.549
00:19:32.550 --> 00:19:36.000
00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:45.569
00:19:45.570 --> 00:19:49.650
00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:58.859
00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:05.490
00:20:05.490 --> 00:20:16.829
00:20:16.830 --> 00:20:18.779
00:20:18.780 --> 00:20:20.609
00:20:20.611 --> 00:20:23.400
00:20:23.401 --> 00:20:29.970
00:20:29.971 --> 00:20:31.529
00:20:31.530 --> 00:20:46.589
00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:57.309
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:07.509
00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:19.359
00:21:19.361 --> 00:21:41.049
00:21:41.050 --> 00:21:50.259
00:21:51.849 --> 00:21:56.650
00:21:56.710 --> 00:22:05.920
00:22:06.309 --> 00:22:21.640
00:22:21.641 --> 00:22:24.579
00:22:24.609 --> 00:22:27.670
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:35.740
00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:37.150
00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:38.769
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.329
00:22:40.151 --> 00:22:42.069
00:22:42.339 --> 00:22:45.039