Hongwei Liu, Founder of MappedIn | How to Find Product Market Fit

Pablo 0:00 There's products you put out and nobody buys it. It's just like in your face, obvious, this is not working. You’ve got to do something else. There's a lot of products, and it sounds like this is where you were, that are in this gray zone where there actually is customers. There actually is some pool, but the upside is, yeah, at least you have something going. The danger is you can convince yourself that you have a lot more than what you really have. Welcome to the Product Market Fit Show, brought to you by Mistrial, a seed-stage firm based in Canada. I'm Pablo. I'm a founder turned VC. My goal is to help early stage founders like you find product market fit. Today we have Hongwei, the CEO of Mapped In. Mapped In provides software platforms for indoor maps and wayfinding. They're based in Waterloo. They have 80 employees and they've bootstrapped their way to almost eight figures in ARR. Welcome to the show, Hongwei. It's great to have you here. Hongwei 0:51 Yeah, thanks for having me. Pablo 0:52 The topic of today's episode, pretty big topic actually, is how to find product market fit. We'll be going through really the entire kind of Mapped In story, but we're really going to focus in on the details and the steps that you took to really nail down product market fit and get into a point where you are now where you have that demand, you have that pool, and you have a solution that you feel really fits what the market needs. As I understand there was kind of – you started with one solution and then you kind of had to shuck and jive until you understood what the pains were. That's what we're going to go through today. Maybe for starters, if you could take us back to the early days. I think you were at The Early Days of MappedIn Pablo 1:31 Velocity, an accelerator in Waterloo, and when you came up with the idea, what was that like and just what was the first idea for Mapped In? Hongwei 1:43 The original idea for Mapped In came out of a side project, right? I would describe myself and my co-founders originally as accidental entrepreneurs. We were bored at school. We joined a residence that said you have to work on some side projects. We wanted to do that anyway. The first idea was, we called it Google Maps for the indoors. Let's help people find stuff on campus. Let's help students find classes on campus, know where stuff is basically. That's how it all started. We kept working on that for about a year, an hour on a weekend here, hour on a weekend there, until a random collision led to us getting introduced to the general manager of the local shopping center, Conestoga Mall. Sandra Stone's still one of the all-time biggest heroes of mine because she said, “Hey, I take shots on stuff like this and digital experience is important to us. It's September right now. Can you guys deliver it by Christmas, by November?” I knew in my head we could. We weren't there yet, obviously. That's when I took a year off school, wired all the money in my bank account at the time as a second year student to some California company that provided some hardware and then we did pull it off. That's really how Mapped In started. Pablo 2:53 Did they pay up front or anything like that or you just took a complete gamble that things would work out? Hongwei 2:57 No, it's a gamble. Basically, it was the biggest number I could make up on the spot in terms of an annual license and it's a really small number by today's standards. Because there was hardware at the time, they wanted – people who know about Mapped In might know us as the company that does those big shopping center directories where you can search for stuff and touch the big screen. Thank goodness we don't do the hardware anymore, haven’t for years. Back then it had to be all included. We charged them a monthly license, but we didn't charge them for the hardware. I financed it with my, again, my five figure life – low five figure lifesavings. It was basically a deal where we'd make that back over the first 12 months and then the second 12 months would be a little bit of margin, but it was real. Pablo 3:40 Okay, and so that first solution looked like what? I mean, you had the software to actually enable those indoor hardware maps you clicked through. Was there an app as well that came along with it in terms of that first kind of idea? Hongwei 3:52 Yeah, so the original idea is a pretty, I call it a pretty dumb one at this point, making apps for wayfinding, right? The mall wanted an app essentially that runs on that big touchscreen so that you can search for stuff and get a map for like, I'm looking for shoes or I'm looking for Aeropostale, here's how you get there. That's super intuitive, right? It made sense to turn the old piece of paper thing into a digital thing. That morphed into, okay, I've got it on the directory now. Now can you put it on my website? It's an app for the website essentially. Then can you make an actual app, which we did as well. I think that's the fairly obvious idea and the hard – the thing that sucked about that idea was it was essentially consulting, right? Like mall A wanted it their brand, their color, their schema, mall B, the next one, wanted it totally different, but we didn't realize that going in. Pablo 4:41 Yeah, so I'm curious how that plays out. Because I can imagine, I mean, you're pretty young at that time, second year student, kind of in your early twenties, you have arguably an enterprise contract. I don't know how much it was, maybe it was $50,000, $100,000, but it was probably meaningful. It seems to be working. I mean, you're selling software. Sure, it's custom made, but it's – so what kind of mode do you go in at that point? Obviously, you build the first version of that and I assume you deliver it to that client. Then do you start getting into kind of like sales mode? You're like, okay, let's hit up all the malls in Canada or US or whatever. Where do you go? Hongwei 5:11 First, I wish it was $50,000 to $100,000. Clearly, I did not dream as big as Pablo on the spot. Pablo 5:17 I’m a VC, man. What could I say? Hongwei 5:19 I Every Use Case was Different Hongwei 5:20 mean, again, accidentally all of us got into this saying, well, I guess we have a business now, or at least one customer and took it really seriously. I was the least bad at talking to people among the founding team. It was my job to be the CEO now and talk to people full-time. Of course, I just, yes, let's go talk to all the other malls that we can find, not an easy proposition when you're a nobody, right? None of us had family collections into this industry. None of us had any personal connections. We were engineers or computer science students at UW. They don't really pick up the phone and just take your call, right? People hammer them all the time for shiny widgets and do you want to use my flyer service over your flyer service. Cold calling is not fun. Tried to do a bit of that, actually, through random collisions, our second customer wasn't even a mall. It was the school of the University of Waterloo. Our third customer was, if I'm not mistaken, Casino Rama in Orillia, Ontario, helping – well, basically helping mostly senior citizens, because that's their target demographic, find slot machines, which is their favorite way to gamble. Hard to do, there's like a hundred thousand machines sometimes in the floor and they rotate often. That was an interesting one, but again, like every single use case was in the end different, right? The mall wanted it like this. The school wanted an app. The casino wanted custom integrations with their slot floor layouts. It was really just an educational exercise. Here are three different types of building owners and businesses that want indoor mapping and wayfinding, but what are the variables in that? Why do they want it? How do they go about it? From all that, we learned a bunch of really important stuff in hindsight that allowed us to then build what became Mapped In today. Pablo 7:09 Moving to that, but maybe just going back, because I do think it is important, like what was your mentality to that point? Was it, okay, people are signing, people are paying, let's build the thing, this is awesome, or was it like, were you aware at that point that, wait a second, I have three customers and three different verticals? Where am I going? Hongwei 7:28 It's hard to describe how naive and not dumb we were about this, right? YC, I think by that time was two years old or three years old, maybe like not that old, basically. Paul Graham hadn't written half his essays. No one was talking about a startup. Everyone was talking about going to Apple, which is where the other path in the road was for me. I guess the only thing I was thinking at the time is better not fuck this up, right? We've got three real customers. We've got at least one employee at that point that we were paying, like a co-op student, and this guy's awesome. He's like really scrappy dude, did amazing work for us, didn't come from a lot of means. I remember when I first met him, he was like crashing in the Velocity dorm and then we hired him as a co-op. That guy needs to get paid. I at least still have some lifesavings. It was really important to me that we didn't disappoint any of those people. It's like survival mode, right? Hopefully, every day you chip away at it. I think maybe back then we would get like a new lead every month just from random efforts that I wouldn't even say were that targeted or effortful. You compare that to like today when I look at Mapped In and we get like five leads a day and I just look at it and I feel happy because I remember how much work each lead used to take. Forget Dragon's Den Hongwei 8:53 Because this is the interesting thing about product market fit, right? You've got the – and I've heard this many times, I mean, it really is a spectrum. On one side of the spectrum, you never really fully have it. I mean, you kind of have it, but then you've got to keep changing because the market keeps changing or whatnot, but on the other side of the spectrum, there's products you put out and nobody buys it. It's just like in your face, obvious, like this is not working. You’ve got to do something else, but there's a lot of products, and it sounds like this is where you were, that are in this gray zone where there actually is customers. There actually is some pool, and you can – the danger there, the upside is, yeah, at least you have something going. The danger is you can convince yourself that you have a lot more than what you really have. That's what I'm trying to pull at here, and the thinking around because at some point you realize it, right? What was that transition like? I guess at what point – where did you get to this first product and at what point and how did you start thinking like we've got to build something bigger or we've got to build something else or it's not really going to scale sort of thing? I guess we got really bad validation from going on Dragons’ Den, which is like, I'm almost embarrassed to say that. You remember we did that. Pablo 9:59 It was a huge deal, by the way. Hongwei 10:00 It was a big deal because like, again, startup wasn't cool, Dragons’ Den, so at least people knew what that was about. We went on. We looked really good. They cut it so you looked really good or really bad. We just made the cut for really good. Then I remember all my friends calling me the next day being like, dude, like when are you going to buy us dinner, right? I'm thinking, man, this is small beans still. Like this is not – this is still a really small operation, but we got a lot of social validation, which I wouldn't even recommend people go chase, but we got that by accident. What we didn't get from that was customers, because if you're selling lawn chairs, Dragons’ Den is awesome. People on their couch buy lawn chairs off the TV. They're not buying indoor mapping software for their mall, right? That's not enterprise buying behavior. That was bad validation. I think the good validation came later. For me, I always had an interest in the product behind what we were shipping the mall. The mall, the school, the university, the hospital, the casino, they all wanted the app, the app that helps people find stuff, let's say. What I found interesting to build, and I still wrote From Custom to Scalable Hongwei 11:03 some code back then, was the map editor behind the scenes. We realized that every single time we sign up a new customer, the first thing they do is send us like this picture or PDF file of their map that's been printed out on their side. They've like scribbled out what's wrong, scribbled in what's right, scribbled in what's coming next week, taken a photo of that and sent it to us and said, can you make this look good and put it into your app? That's how they've been maintaining indoor maps, it turns out, in their respective businesses forever. They just had a digital agency that turned it into a website app. We were essentially that digital agency plugin. We hated doing that work. I thought surely there's a better way to do this on our side. Just for ourselves, we wrote a really rudimentary map editor to make it easy so that the next time they sent us incremental changes, I don't have to re-Photoshop the whole thing. I can just make those incremental changes on our side, efficiency tool for me. I always felt like that tool, A, I had an attachment to it, I had built, it makes sense though that this seems like something that would be more useful at scale. The a-ha moment for me was at a trade show in Vegas where all the malls get together every year. There was the CIO of a really big mall company that walked up to our booth. By then, we had some pretty big customers buying our apps at scale and we were maintaining their maps behind the scenes for them. That customer said, “Hey, my malls aren't that nice. I don't want this wayfinding stuff. We're strip malls. We power centers. There's not even an indoors in most of them, but this map making tool that you just happened to show me,” because I could tell he wasn't interested in it so I just showed him whatever I could show him. He goes, “Yeah, no, that's a really big problem. I've got a thousand centers and maintaining these maps suck. It's super painful.” Pablo 12:46 For internal, just to be clear. This is for internal use case, like operationally, they wanted the map for themselves. Hongwei 12:56 For their leasing plans, right? Because they need a source of truth, if you manage a building, you've got eight different use cases for digital maps. One of them is for the visitor. One it turns out is for leasing. Every time you're renting out space, you got to show what the space is right now. Leasing is a big one and that's what he cared about. Then later on we learned that there was one for security, right? The fire escape thing that needs to be posted by law. The security guards need a copy. The insurance company needs a copy. The city needs a copy. The garbage collection company needs a copy. Where do I actually go to grab the right cans and stuff? They're all following the same workflow. We learned incrementally over time, but by then we had a hunch that, hey, what if all these people are doing what the mall marketing people did for us, which is they print out the CAD file, they scribble it out, they scribble on it, and they take a photo and send it to a contractor agency and say, please make that look good for your purposes. What if all eight of those groups were doing that? It turns out they are largely. I think that confirmed what was more an intuition or maybe just an interest in building tools over apps anyway. We had built this tool for ourselves. Once I heard that, in the next couple months, I just told the team, we're going to really invest in this tool. This is not just for us anymore. Let's see if our customers, our existing mall customers, and we had in the tens of customers at that point, let's see if our customers can use this, too. It turns out they really liked using it. They preferred to edit themselves and self-serve, as we call it today, versus call us. It was faster to just go in and type your own words than – imagine you didn't have Microsoft Word or Word Processing or Excel, and the only way you could change the spreadsheet that you're using is to call somebody over the phone or email them and say, please update this cell for me. That's crazy, right? Computer provision people should be able to self-edit. That was the insight is that, while every building might want a different app for some mapping use case, they're all going to want the same productivity tool for maintaining their own maps. We had stumbled upon it and really learned about it and gotten to know it intuitively because we were in the app making business and they were willing to share then their underlying problems with us. Switching the Sales Pitch Pablo 15:10 That's perfect. A lot of questions on that. Maybe the first one is when you – so you go to this tradeshow. That happens. What do you do with your, let's say, let's call it dozen customers? Do you call them all up and tell them about this idea? Do you build the thing and try and sell it? What's your next move at that point to validate that, oh, it's not just this one CIO, this is a common problem? Hongwei 15:30 Yeah, so I think, I'm tempted to kind of paint it as like a really clear, like, a-ha, go do this and then boom, boom, boom. It's more like that was the big a-ha. Maybe by then we already had one or two of our mall customers have access to it because they want it. They had asked for it and like, oh, that's weird, but like, yeah, that's cool. Please use it. It wasn't that secure. We didn't have privacy concerns like we do today in InfoSec. Certainly, there was no two-factor authentication, but they were happy to log in and do it themselves. Then we thought it was a one-off. This guy says, no, that's all I want. Okay, so that's not a one-off. Now let's go contact the remaining number of our customers. It was likely just me reaching out to them and saying, “Hey, could I show you a demo of what's been happening behind the scenes? Do you want to log into this?” Then but very quickly, I think I switched my sales pitch. For example, a really big customer that we won in Canada's CF, it's like CF Eaton Center, CF Sherway Gardens. It's like the branded luxury mall that most people would know. We weren't the first indoor mapping company to show up trying to sell apps to malls. In fact, there was many other competitors that were already there that we had to displace. The only way we displaced them out of the really big ones that they obviously cared a lot about was the CMS, was the content management system, the editor tool. By the time we showed up with CF, I said, “Hey, here’s – we do the apps really well, too, but here's this map editor that allows you to self-serve and here's why that's good for you. It fits into your various workflows. We're starting to think about other workflows like leasing that this might plug into well.” I don't even know what exactly I said that resonated, but enough of it did. They took a shot on us. We rolled. Today we have definitely CF, but most of the malls, big malls in the world are using us. I would say it's the bet on tools that really unlocked it. The slam dunk win was the next big customer we got, which was Simon Property Group, the world's largest mall owning company. It's $60, $70 billion market cap. I remember calling their VP of marketing at the time. He had heard this pitch from seven different startups that are all trying to sell apps. What's special about you? It's like, well, we have this CMS that comes with the apps that allows you to maintain your own maps. That's really important because your malls change all the time. When Santa Claus shows up for Christmas and he's in a new spot, you need to be able to self-serve. It's like, yeah, I know that's important, but like, how do you do that? We have this web tool you can log in, et cetera, et cetera. His answer was, bullshit, show me. We scheduled a demo that afternoon, did the demo, he recorded it, and that led to procurement. That's the world's largest mall customers. After that, everything else just – everybody else in the world said, okay, I want to know what Simon's doing that's important. It turns out that tool, the indoor mapping tool that allows like a non-architect expert type user, like an everyman user, we call them, to edit their own maps. That's useful. Not just for malls, but today we're working with like 10% of the Fortune 500 headquarters. Their office managers are using Mapped In tools to maintain. I just moved a pot of desks to make room for more desks. Here's where they are now. They can maintain that themselves. It seems to really – it's worked out for us. It was a lucky find, but a good bet because every building on earth that's professionally managed has paper scribblers, not experts. If we can build tools for them, this is a really big business. Pablo 19:13 Do you still do – like there's the custom side of your business, you could argue, which is building the apps. Do you still do that part of the business? Hongwei 19:21 Yeah, and luckily we've done enough permutations of it now and we have enough people that we can just standardize those products, too. You go to our website and they look like products and genuinely it's one code base and maybe there's configurations and like feature flags that you can turn on and off based on your licensing tier. It's all SAAS now, but in those early days, like sub 100 buildings at that scale, we didn't have the cycles. We didn't have the bandwidth. We didn't have the ability to actually build configurable products. It was just a lot of forked apps. Pablo 19:57 It's not like you started with one product and shifted to another. You just added another component to the core product, which puts you on another, like compared to all the other vendors – because I would argue it's probably pretty hard to differentiate as an indoor mapping app. Everybody's kind of pitching a similar thing, different UIs and things like that, different pricing. This was the thing that kind of set you apart. Is that right? Hongwei 20:22 That's right, yeah. We'll be as good or slightly better on the app side, but anybody can build an app for you once. Anybody can draw a map once. It was investing in tools and realizing that it's about having self-service, like self-serve tools for like my mom who can use Excel but will never figure out AutoCAD. She needs to be able to edit a map, if she's an office manager or a marketing manager at a big professionally managed building. It was that investment and the double down there, which wasn't really rational for a long time, right? If our only goal was to win malls and we've won malls, but if that was it, we could have just done the behind the scenes mapping update work the whole time. It still would've been a really profitable business. We didn't have to make self-serve tools. It did help us win faster, right? Because the Simons of the world understood it, but we probably could have won it out anyway. Luckily, we did invest in these tools. I talked to investors who look at like our headcount breakdown of 80 people. There's like way too many engineers in their mind versus salespeople, right? Because we've always been investing in product, but it's this product, the tools that now firefighters are using to maintain maps of indoor buildings before they run inside. Literally yesterday, so this is August 31st, so August 30th, 2022, the governor of New Jersey puts out a press release saying, I'm allocating six and a half million dollars of funding to map all the schools in the state of New Jersey because Uvalde happened. Maps of schools are really important. Again, that's not an app, right? That's data. How do you produce the data of these schools that are constantly changing? You need tools. It's not architects to go survey every single one. That'll cost hundreds of millions of dollars. You need something that a firefighter can use, a police officer, a school admin, a vice principal at Lisgar should be able to go around and just figure this out. I'm really glad we've been investing in those tools. It was always a distant bet in my mind that these tools should be useful for any building owner, but it was waiting for those building owners to have a digital use case that would then require a digital mapping tool. Ten years ago, no one cared about digital maps. Now almost everybody does if they're trying to do something indoors. Discovering Unique Insights Pablo 22:37 In your case, there was kind of a few – there's a few signs that kind of came inbound, like the tradeshow story and a few others that led you to explore these tools that you were already building a little further. I guess what's your advice to – there's probably many, many founders listening to this that are caught selling a product that either, let's talk very specific to your case, that's in a market that's relatively crowded, in a market where it's unclear how you might really scale it, get to a really big size. Having gone through it and now being able to think back to what might have been the optimal thing, what advice would you give them in terms of how they should be playing it? Hongwei 23:20 First, if they're in a market and they have customers and they have customers that are willing to talk to them and pay for their existing products, first of all, good job, guys, because that's hard to do in the first place, right? If they're anything like me, they didn't grow up with any sort of business background. It's not like my mom owns, my dad owns a mall and just told me this is a really big problem. Go solve this problem, kid. I had to go learn this stuff. You have to – I remember it was like Ashton Kutcher, of all people, said, if you work stocking shelves at Home Depot, you're an insider on Home Depot specific things, right? You know which products are flying off the shelves sooner and you know that, for some reason, this ant killer is selling better than that one. You just don't realize that that's like a good insight, but you are there and most people are not. If you're trying to compete in the space of what's an actually good idea and a scalable idea, realize that just by being in business and having enterprise customers, which is customers that pay you money for something that is a commodity, gives you insights into stuff that you take for granted, but most people don't know. Most people, when they try to think of new ideas, they’re sitting on their couch and they're thinking about the same things as any naive person. Those ideas are highly competed and you're not going to find anything that way. I think it's not a bad thing to be in the business of doing something useful for somebody that maybe doesn't scale that well and just keep your eyes open and be thoughtful about, hey, actually this thing that you guys don't seem to – no mall wanted Mapped In to build mapping tools. They just kept sending us stuff that forced us to do some work and we hated doing it. Then we realized, well, if all the malls in the world and all the buildings in the world keep doing it this way, like this is a really big problem, but no one expressed it until much later at that show, but by then we were ready to hear that, right? We had already built that tool for ourselves. I was ready. I had the tool ready to show them. When he confirmed it for me, like, boom, okay, now we need to double down. I would just say keep an eye out for those insights and realize that if you are in any niche, even the most unglamorous one, you're learning stuff that most people don't know. Pablo 25:29 It feels like one way to summarize that would be like sometimes the obvious idea, if I can call it that, is kind of the customer discovery for the big truly innovative idea. Hongwei 25:40 I think so, yeah. User-Friendly vs. Legacy Player Pablo 25:42 Maybe shifting a little bit, where are things at now and what's the marketplace evolved to? I can't imagine you're the only company selling this mapping, this type of mapping tool. I mean, are you? If not, what has your ability to – because you've been in the market, like what kind of edge has that gotten you? Hongwei 26:02 I would say we have two buckets of competitors: app competitors and tool competitors. In the app world, it was mostly startups. I'd say we're by far the biggest indoor mapping startup in the world in terms of customers, revenue, square footage, et cetera. In one way we're doing that right now is because we have these tools and big customers, big partners really recognize that. The people we think of as having made really good tools are like $100 billion household names, right? Like Autodesk makes really good tools, right? Autodesk I don't think thinks of themselves as an indoor mapping company, right? It just so happens that architects everywhere really like AutoCAD and when they are paid commission to design a building, they'll use AutoCAD. The billion dollar building in New York gets built, you get a CAD file at the end and that CAD file persists over time, even though the architect is long gone. The people who know how to use that tool and have the budgets to figure it out are gone. There's just a gap in the operating world, but at the end of the day, I think, we're looking up. We're not looking at who are the other app makers that maybe now have figured it out and need to check the box on having a good tool. We want to – we really look up to what Figma has done in the design space and what Figma is doing to Adobe, for example. There's a general trend in my mind that the more user-friendly enterprise tool can actually win against the super entrenched legacy player. We're seeing that in Gmail. We're seeing that in Slack. We're seeing that in Dropbox. Maybe we'll see that in indoor mapping. Product Market Fit Pablo 27:38 Perfect, awesome. Maybe we'll stop it there, but my last question, this is what we always ask at the end is, when did you feel like you had true product market fit? Hongwei 27:48 I feel better about it every day, but I think it was after the Simon win in the mall space, very confident we had it then, right? Because one demo led to the biggest order on the planet that unlocked the rest of the industry. Then again, like two years ago, we had a really large publicly traded B2B software company – I can't – actually it's public. ServiceNow reached out to us and we became their go-to partner for return to work, so like powering desk booking and table reservations and they looked everywhere. You would think that a really large company can just say, yeah, we'll build this thing, but it's quite hard at that point and we figured it out. That was really neat. That opened up kind of the second horizon, the first horizon being malls, the second horizon being, I guess everything else could play here, too. Then sometime around that time, we won an RFP. It was just a shot in the dark, but we saw that Homeland Security in the US put out an RFP to make tools for firefighters. I thought, well, I've been thinking about that problem for a while. I've been talking to all these firefighters and my jaw would hit the floor when I see this – like the guy that works out all day and then jumps into burning buildings knows way too much about indoor maps. Pick any firefighter off the street and they are shockingly knowledgeable about indoor maps and indoor mapping tools because they've been doing it this whole time. That blew my mind. Then we submitted this RFP for Homeland Security and we won, Canadian company won a US defense contract to build, to adapt our indoor mapping tools for that. I feel better about it every day. I had some calls this morning with new partners that are like, “Man, this is exactly what I've been looking for. Where have you been this whole time?” Then some days, we have setbacks and we have more work to do. That's just the life. Recap Pablo 29:33 Perfect, well, really appreciate it. Maybe just to recap, you started off as a student taking something paper-based and digitizing it, something that we see in many industries that's a valuable idea, but maybe an obvious one that others were doing, too, but you went into that one and really in a sense made a customer discovery and through that came up with a very unique insight and built a tool that has much wider impact, a much bigger tam and something that you just would not have hit upon had you not been in the game. I think that's the biggest lesson here is that by just being in the game, even if it's maybe a constrained market, maybe it's noisy, but the fact that you are there means you have a lot of insights that others don't. If you just put yourself in a position to listen to them, that big idea might be just around the corner. Now you're solving a lot of important problems for a lot of industries, probably well beyond what you would've imagined in Year 1. Thanks a lot for sharing your story with us. It was super insightful. Hongwei 30:35 Yeah, thanks Pablo. I think you summarized it much better than I can. Kudos to you. Pablo 30:43 Thanks so much for listening. If you want to see more content, check out pmf.show.